Some of the CoH players here are birgin mmorpgers. :)
It'll be good to highlight some differences between CoH and other "traditional" mmorpgs so as to "straighten" your thots on incumming titles but take note that what I'm gonna list down here is based on past mmorpg experience, not a trend for fufure games, but by reading this u will prolly understand why we think "otherwise". :P
1. Raid
Typical "uber" raid mmorpg = EQ1 or EQLive (they mean the same game). EQ1 raids are the most exciting ones amg all the raids I've attended. For those who heard Barod's talking abt it during our last CoH TCSS session, he's not pulling ya leg, what he said is very true. EQ1 raids request discipline - movement discipline, spam disciplinary etc and are very techical like those CS FTP, just tat we are now moving in big grps of up to 72 players. Everyone have specific roles, you dun see cleric fighting or nuking, you dun see wiz tanking and you won't see melee fighters idling. When to move, when to stop, when to heal, when to nuke, when to debuff, when to charm, when to shield skin etc, every action leads to the success of the raid and one wrong move, whether move a step more than what you are supposed to, nuke before the main tank aggro mob etc will all lead to the wiping of the whole raid force and everyone spend another one to few hrs just to retrieve corpses. To the extreme, some guilds can take up to few hrs just to "break in" (ie enter the raid zone by clearing all the minor mobs). Anyone who dunno abt raid-discipline will find him/herself been ignored by most players in the game very soon, even those no-life powergamers who can spend 12-20 hrs a day in EQ1 coz no one enjoy spending hrs to retrieve their corpses, not to mention the xp lost. COH doesn't have raid content yet, the closest been task force now but task force is so much easiler than EQ1 raid. In COH, one mistake may only lead to infividual death as compared to whole raid force tio wiped in EQ1.
2. Items/Loots
EQ1 is the other extreme when it come to loots in COH. In COH, we only have limited space for 2 type of "loots": enhancement and inspiration, both come in automatically w/o bothering who loot what etc. In EQ1, for the past 5 yrs, there are new items almost everyday, not 1 or 2 items, but 10-20 items per go. Char stats will not change so the increment of stats rely mainly on items and buffs. In EQ1, items, lvl and AA are the key elements to tell whether a char is powerful or not. While items is so useful in EQ1, it's oso the reason for most of the conflicts in the game and there are many guilds which fallen apart due to loots - RL friends become enemies (it's true!), so most pple will prefer to raid with pple whom they know or trust.
3. Farming
Not ya farmer's farming. It means "farming" of items which you need, eg a haste belt for your warrior. COH has no farming, enhs and insps come by themselves whether in EQ1, pple can stay online for many hrs just to farm some items. Using myself as an example, it tooks me 3 nights of 14 hrs each just to farm my pair of journeyman boots (ya, this is the boots which EQ2 pre-orderer gonna get) b4 they change it to some other method to get this boots. Farming itself has alot of inherent probs: kill stealing, frustrustration, panda eyes, etc etc.
4. Class or AT oriented grping
In COH, most AT can solo pretty well, in fact there is no motivation to form grp >4 players. This is usually not the case in other games, esp at higher lvls. DAOC, EQ1, etc all need the typical grp combo: tank, healer/rezzer, crowd controller (cc) + misc damagers. So COH controllers may find them unwanted but equivalent classes in other mmorpgs are highly in demand always coz grping cannot be done w/o them.
5. Fighting even or higher-conned mobs
Think COH is the only game which players can whack not just one, but a big grp of mobs which is several lvl higher than their chars. In EQ1, whacking same-lvl conned is already consider so damn uber coz most pple can only hunt green/blue mobs (ie few lvls below) in a grp, with the exceptions of 1-3 classes which manage to solo mobs close (but below) their lvls.
6. Crafting
No such thing in COH, but the other extreme is SWG, where u need to mine for the raw materials, combine them using crafting skills to fab parts and then to the finished goods, every steps contribute to the quality of the end pdt: the quality of the raw material, the quality of the tools used, the skill etc etc.
Quote: 1. Raid
Typical "uber" raid mmorpg = EQ1 or EQLive (they mean the same game). EQ1 raids are the most exciting ones amg all the raids I've attended. For those who heard Barod's talking abt it during our last CoH TCSS session, he's not pulling ya leg, what he said is very true. EQ1 raids request discipline - movement discipline, spam disciplinary etc and are very techical like those CS FTP, just tat we are now moving in big grps of up to 72 players. Everyone have specific roles, you dun see cleric fighting or nuking, you dun see wiz tanking and you won't see melee fighters idling. When to move, when to stop, when to heal, when to nuke, when to debuff, when to charm, when to shield skin etc, every action leads to the success of the raid and one wrong move, whether move a step more than what you are supposed to, nuke before the main tank aggro mob etc will all lead to the wiping of the whole raid force and everyone spend another one to few hrs just to retrieve corpses. To the extreme, some guilds can take up to few hrs just to "break in" (ie enter the raid zone by clearing all the minor mobs). Anyone who dunno abt raid-discipline will find him/herself been ignored by most players in the game very soon, even those no-life powergamers who can spend 12-20 hrs a day in EQ1 coz no one enjoy spending hrs to retrieve their corpses, not to mention the xp lost. COH doesn't have raid content yet, the closest been task force now but task force is so much easiler than EQ1 raid. In COH, one mistake may only lead to infividual death as compared to whole raid force tio wiped in EQ1.
Boss, dun mind I added my personal view here (I have not played CoH).
IMHO, big uber RAID mentioned by Boss in EQ1 = time sink, i.e. very time consuming. I find that as we are getting busy in RL especially for those married ppl, we do not have the time to attend those RAID w/o lots of sacrific like sleeping very late and go to work the next day as zombie.
Not sure about others, I am getting to dislike big RAID as I find it a really wasted of time (i.e. spending too much time doing the preparation buffing and getting the correct classes to attend the RAID. And not to mention lag and ppl LD during the RAID which cos the RAID to fail and has to spend another huge amount of time getting prepare for the RAID again).
Harri,
I agree such Uber Raids are time sinks. But they also add diversity, challenge and fun to an MMORPG. They are a big part of the reason EQ managed to last so long despite fierce competition. Without Raids and the Uber Armor/Weapons/equipment etc... that can result from such raids... MMORPGs get stale much sooner. They were definitely something most ppl liked... because ppl would continue to do them despite the amount of time it took and this was in spite of hours of time spent on Corpse Retreival (CR) and just entering the zone (could take hours to break in).
The worst aspect (big guilds needed) seems to have been worked on (24 player cap now). Hopefully, such Raids will be great fun in EQ2. :)
Forgot to add:
COH is kinda boring now (for me)... mainly due to a lack of:
1. real Loot
2. Raids that truly challenge ppl (TFs are chicken)
3. PVP (for the PVP inclined)
Quote: Not sure about others, I am getting to dislike big RAID as I find it a really wasted of time (i.e. spending too much time doing the preparation buffing and getting the correct classes to attend the RAID. And not to mention lag and ppl LD during the RAID which cos the RAID to fail and has to spend another huge amount of time getting prepare for the RAID again).
I totally agreed with u.
While I like the challenges in EQ1 raids, I dun enjoy the long hrs of tracking, waiting-for-spawns, breaking in etc. Yes, all these steps are necessary but to spend hrs to do them, no thx!
Timing is always a big prob for casual gamers in EQ1, esp with all the competition and cock-blocking (uber guilds blocking smaller guild to gain access to raid zones). I hope EQ2's 24 men raid is designed to solve all these prob:
- No more cock-blocking, since it's now "instances".
- No more competition where pple have to fight and take turns to raid.
- No more 72 men zerging which leads to lag and LD.
- No more long process of flagging/keying guildies.
- No more stucked in certain raids for gearing up.
24-30 men is a very good number to manage and to play with. Size too big, hell lots of time to gear/flag pple, LD/lag etc. I personally think a 3 hrs max raid will be good for most gamers (ie from preparation, gathering, break in, buffing, fighting, boss mob and finally loot allocation and port-out to parking). Let pray hard that the 24 men raid concept will work.
For the BIG raid, the challanges is only for the few that plan and figure out the tactices. ....the rest is just follow commands and do your job can liao.
Maybe I simplified it too much... :D :D :D
Quote: For the BIG raid, the challanges is only for the few that plan and figure out the tactices. ....the rest is just follow commands and do your job can liao.
Actually I think tactics is gonna play a very impt part in the 24 men raids. Unlike previously EQ1 guildies can supplement the lack of tactics with massive zerging, EQ2 limits raid size to 24 men so no plan/preparation/tactics = CR.
Although I think now with smaller groups it may be easier to distribute and collect gear, with the limit to 4 groups (24 chars) uber lewt becomes ever more important than before.
Starting out, most probably we will be using smithed items only.
Mid-way, we'll be using dropped weapons, and only after that when the smiths have enough skill and the high level mobs start dropping the items for uber item crafting, will we be able to equip ourselves with enhanced smithed items.
Because 24 members can only have so much firepower, the only way to increase is to increase the quality of gear.
EQL was different, weapons not good enough? Add in a few more groups of high DPS chars like Max AA rangers or wizards or rogues.
EQ2 is different, you can attack a mob with 100 characters, but the moment it detects more than 24 people from same group-link attacking it the mob becomes invunerable until his hate list has 24 peeps only.
Sigh. After reading on the EQ1 raids, im very scared to get into the follow-up. While i'm still a student, my assignments are pretty intentsive and usually follow-up with THE tests
But chionging game is nothing new to me and something i certainly enjoy :D Previously when i chiong AC2 HC(around 6-8hrs daily), my gf got so pissed she simply uninstalled the game from my pc and threw my notes and cds down the rubbish chute when i was in uni. I was so mad when i came back man hahah....
Quote: Sigh. After reading on the EQ1 raids, im very scared to get into the follow-up. While i'm still a student, my assignments are pretty intentsive and usually follow-up with THE tests But chionging game is nothing new to me and something i certainly enjoy :D Previously when i chiong AC2 HC(around 6-8hrs daily), my gf got so pissed she simply uninstalled the game from my pc and threw my notes and cds down the rubbish chute when i was in uni. I was so mad when i came back man hahah....
Heh, don't get us wrong... right now we can talk about all that we did from an objective outside-looking-in perspective.
But once you're hooked... EQ will reel you in and not let you go. :) During those times you never think about how silly it would be, you're too busy having fun or trying to make that goal.
When Luclin came out, our guild took 5 tries to kill The Itraer Vius, and each time he was about to die, I could feel my excitement building then... *WHAM* our main tank goes flying off to the ramp and getting massive aggro, raid wipeout :)
This was before all this POP nonsense, where it actually took 30 of us lvl 60 to hammer this guy down.
I recently heard of a group of 6 (2 cleric 1 warrior 1 druid 1 monk 1 paladin) which killed him. They were all 65 with EP gear, claimed that fighting to him was more trouble than fighting IV himself.
The point of this was... that you really have lots of fun playing any game, and only get to bitch about the game when you leave :)
Quote: Sigh. After reading on the EQ1 raids, im very scared to get into the follow-up. While i'm still a student, my assignments are pretty intentsive and usually follow-up with THE tests But chionging game is nothing new to me and something i certainly enjoy :D Previously when i chiong AC2 HC(around 6-8hrs daily), my gf got so pissed she simply uninstalled the game from my pc and threw my notes and cds down the rubbish chute when i was in uni. I was so mad when i came back man hahah....
heheh, not to pissed you by what im gotta say... ^^!
she did the right thing and she cares enuff about you to "fight" it. be it a game, another "girl" or "guy" :D
/salute
----------
bibi
Quote: Heh, don't get us wrong... right now we can talk about all that we did from an objective outside-looking-in perspective.
Yeah, I gave my point of view from a guy with family commitment. MMORPG is fun, the RAID mentioned by Zan is correct, for without great mob to kill (challange) and great loot (reward), the game will not be able to attract the players. It is just that, player like me can't afford to spend too much time online, thus uber RAID has becomes out of question for me.
One good example is, I missed most of the uber RAID in DAoC latest expansion becos I just can't stay up the whole night chionging the RAID. (Most of the RAID was run during SG time Sat 2am till Sun around 8am due to majority of the players are from US)
Having said all these, let be a responsible gamer. It's not easy, even my wife nag at me sometimes, but have to try. :)
Whoa Harrison's uber raid timing really seems extreme, chasing it would mean switching night and day lol :)
Funny thing was after stopping and selling my AC2 acct on ebay, while i certaintly had more time for stuffs i ended up spenting more money...
Quote: Sigh. After reading on the EQ1 raids, im very scared to get into the follow-up. While i'm still a student, my assignments are pretty intentsive and usually follow-up with THE tests But chionging game is nothing new to me and something i certainly enjoy :D Previously when i chiong AC2 HC(around 6-8hrs daily), my gf got so pissed she simply uninstalled the game from my pc and threw my notes and cds down the rubbish chute when i was in uni. I was so mad when i came back man hahah....
Hey, do I know you in AC2?
Aoi (was on one of the KvK servers, cant remember the name liao hhe)
Sry Cerulean, don't think i met you b4. I played in the only PvP server when i started, Darktide if i remmeber its name correctly. Was a Feral intendant. AC2's repetitve(imo haha) gameplay is dam addictive to me and the rat race among everyone to get more powerful and kill each other simply sucked me in :D
Too many bad experience from EQ. No matter how "good" EQ2 seems on paper, I personally am not going to play it.
Somehow EQ brings out the worse in everyone especially over loot.
I hate the fact that to improve your character, you basically have to sell your soul to your guild. You must sacrifice your personal time to attend and stay throughout the whole raids. You must log in when mob spawn, stay up late to finish the raid, adjust your personal life around on special event like server maintenance so that your guild can race and beat others to the mobs.
I have no doubt that EQ2 may be a good game in many ways, just be aware that it could be extremely addictive and that you may have to pay a high price in your personal life.
I'll like to bonk Greypint on this becoz that's what i had been telling him since before we played EQ.
A bit of history on myself, I started playing MUD at a tender age of 21, boy is it addictive. My internet bills skyrocketed to $200-$300 a month, I get panda eyes, I make millions of mistakes at work, am always late and always exhausted(like Spiderman).
It took quite a bit of effort and luck to shrug off that addiction(Thanks Ender for P.file swiping!)
2 years later, Greypint asked our gang to try EQ. 'Looks really good!' and he started the ball rolling, it has been 5 years. Although we have been quiting and going back time and again, gawd, I had great memories of arguments with my ex-gf when i said,'I am tired, wanna go home liow.' and end up playing till 3am in da morning.
I guess after these MMORPGs, I'll stick to my mortal life for now. :D
hahaha, IT was fun when we started out!
I still remember bronze armour was uber then
Most of the problems came when we join guilds for raids......
Anyway all the more we should let those mmorpg virgins know
I am still enjoying my regular short small dose of COH
Quote: Whoa Harrison's uber raid timing really seems extreme, chasing it would mean switching night and day lol :)
Yeah, the Master Level (ML) Trials mob required high lvl zerg to kill it and there are about 100 Trials (Each ML consists of 10 trials) to complete. Some of the trials required solo, some required small grp and some required zerg especially the final trial of each Master Level.
During the trials run, when ppl LD and lag, most of the time, the zerg will get wiped by the trial boss and we have to either regrp which took another hour or 2 before we retry the trial again.
Quote: I hate the fact that to improve your character, you basically have to sell your soul to your guild. You must sacrifice your personal time to attend and stay throughout the whole raids. You must log in when mob spawn, stay up late to finish the raid, adjust your personal life around on special event like server maintenance so that your guild can race and beat others to the mobs.
I think most of us hate this.
I hate EQ1 for the fact tat guildies need to get big to do high-end raids.
I hate EQ1 that u need to stay long hrs to farm items.
I hate EQ1 that FRIENDS fight with one another for a few bits of data (ie loot).
I hate EQ1 for no much real chiobus, most are freaking shemales...ops. ^^!
I hope EQ2 24-men raid restriction and their instances concept will changes all these.
Back to the topic, CoH is very good for a small grp of casual players coz the game contents don't require a big guild. This is the extreme from other mmorpgs where big is always preferred, provided the guild can handle the size. Even though CoH grp is cater for 8 pple, most of the time u dun see grp of >4 gamers, coz there is no incentive to get bigger than 4 as the xp over time simply dun worth it.
Quote: I think most of us hate this.
I hate EQ1 for the fact tat guildies need to get big to do high-end raids.
I hate EQ1 that u need to stay long hrs to farm items.
I hate EQ1 that FRIENDS fight with one another for a few bits of data (ie loot).
I hate EQ1 for no much real chiobus, most are freaking shemales...ops. ^^!
I hope EQ2 24-men raid restriction and their instances concept will changes all these.
This applied to DAoC latest PvE expansion (ToA) too.
Paiseh OOT again. :P
Quote: This applied to DAoC latest PvE expansion (ToA) too.
Paiseh OOT again. :P
Not OOT, ya post oso allow those who already retired from DAOC know its latest development.
At the very least, we know this aspect of DAOC latest expansion is another extreme from CoH. :)
Quote:
EQ2 is different, you can attack a mob with 100 characters, but the moment it detects more than 24 people from same group-link attacking it the mob becomes invunerable until his hate list has 24 peeps only.
U mean it will activate it's Temp Invulnerability, Unstoppable, Invincibility and Unyielding Stance powers?!?!
Wow! A Supervillain! :hurray:
If that happens, I'll ask everyone to step back and let Supersidekick handle that scumbag of Norrath!
